Home Contact AFVN Past Contacts AFVN Roster POWS: The Honored Taps: Those Departed AFVN Organization AFVN Reunions
AFVN History AFVN Photos & Stories AFVN Group Conversations Audio Archives Video Archives AFVN Guest Book
Project Jenny KLIK - 1st Inf Di v Women in Vietnam RELATED-- To AFVN To Saigon To Vietnam Further Afield Index
The Fleet Speaks and the Admirals Listen
The Navy's decision to eliminate rates and the Army's decisions related to "two rocker" E-6s.
May 2016
From: Bob Morecook
Dated: January 9, 2017
Subject: The Sergeants Speak; the Generals Listen
Hi LF
The army does still have BOTH specialist and corporal for E4 and both are used.
Best wishes Bob M
From: Nancy Smoyer
Dated: January 9, 2017
Subject: The Fleet Speaks and the Admirals Listen
Is there anyway to summarize this to a non-sailor?
From: Ken Kalsih
Dated: January 9, 2017
Subject: The Fleet Speaks and the Admirals Listen
We won!
The following link goes to a December 1962 Navy Times article titled "Ratings restored:
Effective Immediately, sailors will get their job titles back."
AFVN Group Conversations
From: Frank Rogers
Dated: January 9, 2017
Subject: The Sergeants Speak; the Generals Listen
Dear Group,
The "second class citizens” the Army instituted in the late 50s was a real nightmare. Only combat arms were to be NCOs (Sergeants) [there were also combat arms Corporals] and Specialists were to be considered “support.” But to show the falsity, I saw Medical Records clerks who were NCOs, and we all know the Combat Weapons Infantryman was a Specialist. A 20-year Specialist 9 would be inferior to a 20-month Corporal E4.
If you were in a Tri-Service organization such as AFVN, the authority went by pay grade, no matter Specialist or Sergeant. Gradually the Army eliminated the Specialist 8 & 9, then 6 & 7. After I retired, I’m sure the 5 was also eliminated, leaving only the current Specialist E 4. As far as I can learn there are no corporals in the army now. But because of an enlistment center error I was one but had to convert to a Broadcasting Specialist at my first duty station.
This is only a small bit of the Specialist system fiasco.
Frank
From the Webmaster:
Today, Specialists are only at the E-4 level, and are simply called "Specialists." I don't ever recall seeing a Corporal at Camp Zama but it is basically a support base. However, according to this link, they still exist: (Click Here or Click Here)
From: Steve Pennington
Dated: January 9, 2017
Subject: The Sergeants Speak; the Generals Listen
Another effect of creation of E-8 and E-9 was the congressional mandate to limit E-9 to 1% of the enlisted force and E-8 to 2%. The Air Force eliminated Warrant Officer rank at the same time, the only branch to do so. The Army had Specialist ranks [from E--4] up to and including E-9 which caused a lot of consternation among the NCOs.
SLP
From: Jim White [Never posted as an email message.]
Dated: March 15, 2017
Subject: The Sergeants Speak; the Generals Listen
Much the same thing happened to me. I was promoted to SGT, E5 in February 1954 and then converted to an SP5, E5 in June 1955. Afterwards, promotions became very scarce due to the down-sizing of the Army following the Korean Conflict. But, in late January 1958, I was lucky enough to get a blood stripe promotion to SFC, E6. {(Note: The Army "blood stripe" is when one was promoted following some one else being demoted following a court martial and has nothing to do with the Marine "blood stripe. This type of promotion disappeared a few years following my promotion to SFC.) As mentioned above, the change from SFC, E6 to SSG, E6 went into effect just two months later with the establishment of the E8 and E9 pay grades in April 1958. I then hit a real "dry spell" as far as promotions were concerned and didn't make SFC, E7 until June 1966. Between those two promotions, it seemed that one month the Army Times would announce that all SFC, E6s would have to remove a rocker and become SSG, E6s effective such and such a date. Then a month or two later and before the effective date, the policy would be reversed and all SFC, E6s could continue to war two rockers and be called SFCs. Then, perhaps after a few more months, the Army Times would again announce that all SFC, E6s would have to become SSG, E6s....and so on for the entire eight years. I was about to start putting my 2nd rocker on with velcor. A side story to this is that a later-to-be friend who went before the same promotion board, told me that when I went before the SFC, E7 promotion board wearing the two rockers of an SFC, E6, everyone in the waiting room evidently looked at each other and muttered "Well, he's number one wonder who will be number two.")
Jim W
From: Bob Morecook
Dated: January 9, 2017
Subject: The Sergeants Speak; the Generals Listen
Something similar happened in 1960 when the military established the new pay grades of E8 and E9 . [Actually effective April 1st, 1958. Webmaster] My dad was an E7 at the time which at that time was a Master Sergeant--and was wearing three stripes up with three rockers down. The Department of the Army told all the E7's that they were now Sergeants First Class and to take off one rocker because E8 was going to be a Master Sergeant. There was MUCH unhappiness. The army's solution was to say that RANK and PAY GRADE are not the same thing. As the resul,t all E7s who were already master sergeants kept their rank and stripes. And if promoted simply became Master Sergeants E8. Unless you asked, there was no way to look at someone's stripes and know if the three up and down striper in front of you was a E7 or E8. Likewise Sergeants First Cass who were E6 simply remained E6 until promoted to Sergeant First Class E7. The older rank of Staff Sergeant, abolished a number of years earlier was re-established for those newly promoted from Sergeant, E5 to E6].
Bob M